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So you've just come off tour with Underoath, how was it?

It was awesome actually. All the shows had really good responses and I think we won over a lot of new fans. And Underoath were cool guys as well.

They were nice guys, yeah?

(Laughs) Yeah, really nice! It's kind of strange because they're a very religious band and a lot of the themes on our album are anti-religion! But they were really sound guys and good to get to know.

So am I right in saying that you and Adam (Symonds, vocals) formed the band but it took a while to get the rest of the line-up?

Yeah, we actually got everyone through different internet message boards and it took ages, especially for a drummer. We were lucky with Kieron (Iles, drummer) because he was actually in the same area at university but everyone else had to relocate. We had a guy called Neil who was in the band for a while who relocated from Durham to St. Albans where we are. The most extreme case of that was a guy from Portland in the States who we met on a message board. It seems crazy now but we really needed a second guitarist so he came over. But he was awful! He couldn't play and he was mental as well!

(laughing)

(laughing) The first night he was over we had a practice with him and he had a few beers and he kind of went loopy! We were ready to send him packing then but because he'd come all that way we gave him a bit more of a chance but he just couldn't pick up the riffs. So we went through a lot of different people, then Neil left just before we recorded The Treachery Pact EP and then Simon (Davis, guitars) joined. [Neil leaving] didn't really matter because Adam and I wrote everything on the Treachery Pact apart from Scene One, which Simon worked on, and then Phil (Buch, guitars) joined afterwards.

The Treachery Pact EP is very oppressive and claustrophobic, whereas the album, To You The First Star, is much more expansive, experimental and melodic. Was that a conscious decision?

Yeah, there were a number of factors. There was definitely a decision to open it up and let things breathe. And we really wanted the album to flow, so we put a lot of thought into the way the songs ran but there were other things too. Like I said before, myself and Adam wrote The Treachery Pact and then when we came to write the album we had four people writing so there were loads more ideas. So there was a conscious effort to open it up and add the texture but it did evolve too.

How was the writing process because after the EP's release it felt like you guys were away for a long time.

Well it's weird actually, the album was written in two stages because originally we were going to write another EP but when we decided we were going to write an album it was just a great feeling that we could put the time in and think everything through. So songs like "Murder Was Her Name" and "More Fireflies for the Candlelight" were written, maybe, as much as a year before "Disinformasiya" and "The Acidic Taste of Betrayal". It did take a long time but there a lot of songs that got ditched as well, maybe six or seven songs that didn't see the light of day. We actually played some of them live for a while but it was cool to give the album time and whittle out the songs that we ended up not liking as much.

So was there a reason that you picked Andrew Schneider to record the album and not work with Kurt Ballou (Converge) who produced the EP?

We did think about working with Kurt again because he's awesome and really cool to work with but just in the interest of progressing and not covering old ground we decided to work with someone else. It took a long time though, there were a lot of names we looked at.

I read that Matt Bayles was mentioned.

We did talk to Matt Bayles and then we heard the Keelhaul record (which Andrew produced) and we just loved it. We contacted Andrew and he downloaded "Scene One" and "Ephemera" and he was just so keen to work with us and had such a good attitude, that he was the guy we wanted to work with.

And so you flew him over to Foel Studios in Wales.

Yeah, like we did with Kurt. We love the thought of going out to the States but it's just not practical for five of us to go over.

And how was it in the studio with him?

Well for me as a bassist it was really cool because he plays bass, whereas Kurt was a guitarist. So it was nice to have a bassist in there.

The bass is much more prominent on this album.

Yeah, that was one of the problems with the EP; the guitars sound great but there's no bottom end. But there were definitely ideas that Andrew brought to the record. Like the cello was originally on "The Atheist Light" but he decided to get her to do some on "I Am What You Are" and then "Disinformasiya" as well. He really wanted to get as much in there to play around with.

So after spending so much time touring Europe will you be heading out to the States soon?

(Laughs) Well, that's where we want to go! Right now, it's a little bit frustrating because we'd hoped to have things organised already. But we're just trying to negotiate a licence for America to get the record out over there because we really need to have that behind us so that we can go on tour and have a good chance. There is interest...

Can you say any names?

Not really, no, but it's something we want to wrap up soon and just get over there. We'd really hoped to be out there now because we didn't want this downtime. But if this is for Lambgoat and there's labels reading...

(laughing)

And because we've toured with US bands, there are US bands that want to take us out. Well Martyr AD wanted to take us out but they split up!

But you've also toured with Dillinger Escape Plan and Converge.

Yeah, yeah, we've been really lucky. Especially with Dillinger asking us to do their last London show, it's nice when you've been asked to do it and not just had a booking agent trying to stick you on these bills. So yeah, it is really cool.

I've met Ben and the guys in Dillinger and they were really nice, down-to-earth guys.

Yeah, they're really great guys. So we've been lucky in that respect, so it's just a case of taking it to the next level and hopefully, hooking up with some of those bands. If we could, we'd just go out there and play, it's just not financially viable at the moment. But we've really got that work ethic of American bands, that's why they're so successful because they're willing to tour all the time but we just can't right now! (Laughs) But hopefully soon.

Living in the UK, I noticed that our press are happy to give acclaim to US bands but almost struggle to acknowledge the talents of UK groups. I don't know if it's an issue of insecurity or simply that American bands sell more magazines. Or am I just being a cynical journo?

No, no I do agree with you. It can get really frustrating because you'll get a really good review but then they'll just compare you to an American band. I mean we've always had that Converge comparison.

Which isn't really there is it?

No! (Laughs) And that's the funniest thing about The Treachery Pact getting compared to Converge, is that honestly, 100%, me and Adam hadn't heard them when we wrote the songs! The reason we got Kurt in was purely on a production basis and it was our [old] guitarist Neil that instigated that. So it can get frustrating but then we've probably had a lot more exposure in the UK press than some other bands, so we can't complain too much. But they do kind of spoil it when they come up with "The UK's answer to Converge or Dillinger!" It would just be nice to be recognised as a good band rather than a good band from the UK. I mean Converge have a massive Entombed influence but they're not "Boston's Answer To Entombed!"

But I think it's exactly because your band has a very distinctive sound that critics come up with these lazy comparisons because they find it hard to describe your sound.

Yeah.

But the fact that you don't really sound like anyone else could work for you in the States.

I'd like to think so, yeah. With the exception of yourself, maybe the journalism in the UK is lazier than the States (laughs)! But I mean, really, as long as the people who listen to music give us a chance. Fingers crossed!

Something else I've noticed, is that you're almost the embodiment of the DIY ethic; you've paid for producers to fly over here, you decided last minute to not sign with Visible Noise and the subsequent deliberation over the label which followed was all to ensure artistic freedom, and you've spent considerable time on tour. To me it seems like a really intense DIY work ethic but at the same time you seem totally unwilling to pander to what's in vogue musically.

(Laughs) Yeah, it's tough! To be honest, we're writing new material at the moment but if we wanted to record another record right now, I don't think we could afford to do it! It's just the fact that we've had that focus and we've known what direction we've wanted to take, so we've been prepared to do it ourselves to make it happen. I mean, Visible Noise, would have paid for the record we've just done but it all would have been on their terms. It feels much better to have put the work in, saved the money and done it how we wanted.

But there are people who knock us for doing that. (Laughs) I don't know if they don't get it but the funniest quote I read was (laughs), it was talking about us flying Kurt over to [cut costs] and they said "Well couldn't they have brought him over on a boat?"

(laughing)

But it's hard. We haven't written a commercial record, which makes it harder to get out to people but I guess it's just integrity, it's like… when you read a review or you hear someone say they maybe didn't get it at first but now they love it, well that's what we wanted. We didn't necessarily want it to be the most instant album, we wanted it to be one that people go back to and still be listening to, rather than play to death for a couple of weeks and then not put on any more.

Well the EP was very instant and you do have to listen to the album a few times but then suddenly it grows on you.

That's cool. Yeah we just have to hope people persevere with it.

And what's the new material like? I read a great quote by Adam where he said, "We're always on the cusp of disappearing up our own arses but it seems to end up on the right side of pretentious."

(laughing) I've been working with Adam a lot on some new stuff but we haven't taken it to the band. There's one thing we've worked on as a band and we're all working individually on our own ideas as well. So collectively it's hard to say, but I think it might be less riff-based. We'll always want a dark atmosphere on a record and we'll want it to be really heavy but without relying on "the chugness", you know? The direct guitar riffs. It's going to be tricky!

But the thing with us is, I always felt that we didn't want any limits on what we write, so if we came out and wrote something mellow then there's nothing to say that we couldn't write something heavy. Whatever we write there'll be a dark atmosphere and it'll have a really heavy vibe to it.

Do you have any idea of when a new album might be?

Well, because we've got this unexpected downtime, we've had a couple of months to get together and work on some ideas. But I'd love to start doing some demos in the next three or four months. As far as an album goes… it's hard to say with us because we wrote so much material before but it definitely won't be the length of time it took to release the album!

And then The Treachery Pact is going to be re-released in October.

With any new tracks?

It's going to have the Radio One session on it.

That was good, I heard that.

Oh cool, cheers. Well there was that one unreleased song on the session, "Not Long For This World". There might be some unreleased tracks on there and there'll be a new inlay. And we did a video for "Cold Night" as well which no-one has really seen so hopefully that might be on there and we're also doing a video for "Hunter And The Hunted" so maybe that'll make it on too.

It'd be good if you could make it worthwhile for people who have already got the EP as well as newcomers.

Oh yeah, we definitely want to put as much on it as we can.

And will that get released in the States?

Again, it depends on the license. Hopefully who ever picks up the album will want to pick up that as well. It's a weird one because there's still so much life in the album that it's a weird time to re-release the EP.

And for the future do you have people in mind for production?

Initially I'd love to work with Andrew again, I mean, I'd love to work with Kurt again but then in the interest of keeping things fresh we'd maybe try somebody new. Somebody I'd really like to work with is Alex Newport.

From Theory Of a Ruin and Fudge Tunnel.

Yeah. Some of his production is awesome. I don't know if you know a band called Codeseven but they did a record called "The Rescue" and his production on that is amazing. And also, Phil mentioned working with the guys from Sigur Ros.

That'd be really interesting.

Yeah in their studio in Iceland.

That makes sense though because the first song on the album, "Solstitium", has a very strong Sigur Ros feel to it and I mean that as a compliment because I like that band!

(Both laugh)

I really like how the melody to "Solstitium" almost reappears in those closing chords of the album.

Yeah, it's very similar. I like the way that happens too. We were actually going to give that part a name but it then it worked well as "Disinformasiya". It was called "Murder In The Snow" at one point.

So yeah, there's different producers we want to work with. That's if we can afford to record another album in the future! (Laughs).

Ever!

Yeah! (Laughs)

And finally I wanted to talk about the lyrics. You said they were anti-religious?

Yes, very much so. All of it is based round religion. The funny thing about playing with Underoath was the song "Hail Satan" but they never asked about it. And all Adam's saying is that with religion people are worshipping something that they can't back up, even if it's Satanism. And the title, "To You The First Star", refers to the idea that regardless of religion and Gods, without the sun no-one would survive. It's kind of pagan!

They're very interesting lyrics.

There's definitely that running theme all through the record. And even down to the song titles, some of those songs didn't have titles for ages because he was so intent on getting everything right with them. And he's had a lot of positive feedback about the theme of the lyrics. They're quite poetic.

They're also quite narrative too.

Yeah, so it's not just the themes. Some people have said they've been inspired by them. Which is kind of, well it's cool, you know?

But at the same time, they're very cryptic so it's interesting that people get that connection to them.

(Laughs) Yeah, yeah! He's always been like that! The lyrics for the Treachery Pact weren't on the inlay, although they'll be on the re-issue, but for ages people would ask him to send them lyrics and he wouldn't! I think just because they're his own thoughts, you know, it feels a bit odd. But he's opened up a lot more now!